Welcome and introduction

Andrew Copson 0:01

Welcome to Unholy Histories, the Humanist Heritage Podcast brought to you by Humanist UK. I'm Andrew Cobson, Chief Executive of Humanist UK.

Madeleine Goodall 0:09

And I'm Madeline Goodall, head of the Humanist Heritage Project.

Andrew Copson 0:13

We're the hosts of this new podcast series where we will be speaking with experts about Britain's humanist history.

Madeleine Goodall 0:18

Uncovering the people, events, and ideas that have shaped both humanist thought and our national life.

Andrew Copson 0:37

In 1942, in the depths of the Second World War, an economist named William Beveridge published his report identifying what he called the five giant evils facing British society: want, disease, ignorance, squalor, and idleness. It was a report that would change our country forever. From it grew the National Health Service, the post-war welfare state, and a new vision of what the state owed its citizens. But the welfare state did not appear from nowhere. Behind that vision stood a long tradition of ethical and philosophical thought from the British idealists of the 19th century through ethical socialism and new liberalism to the post-war reformers who put these ideas into practice. A tradition rooted in secular ethics, human dignity, and a belief that reason, compassion, and collective responsibility could be the foundation of a better society. This week we are talking about the founding of the welfare state and some of the humanist ideas and thinkers behind it. And to discuss the enduring legacy of one of the most ambitious social projects in modern British history, if not world history, we are joined by Lord Neil Kinnock, who served as leader of the Labour Party from 1983 to 1992, and Professor Colin Tyler, Professor of Applied Ethics and Political Theory at the University of Hull, and author of Common Good Politics. Welcome everyone.

Colin Tyler on British Idealism and Common Good Politics

Madeleine Goodall 1:53

So I'm going to start off by asking you, Colin, a bit about your work on British idealism, including what that is, and on common good politics, and indeed what that is. And what drew you to those traditions of social and political thought.

Colin Tyler 2:10

Right. All right, thank you. I mean I grew up in the 80s. And I vividly remember the morning after, I think others in this room might as well, the morning after the 83 election, walking down with my brother to go. I was going to school, he was going to go to the unemployment office. And I just remember the feeling of depression that that hit us because it was going to be another four or five years of Thatcher. So that got me interested in politics. My father was always interested in the news and interested in politics. And so when I went to university, eventually I was interested in socialism. But I was also, I wasn't drawn towards Marxism. I thought there had to be some middle ground between having a support for a life and making, particularly when you're in a vulnerable position economically or socially, but one that doesn't require the state to take away all personal liberty. And that was what led me eventually through my studies, through particularly my master's degree at York. I started to look at the British idealists. So the British idealists were a movement of philosophers but also social reformers that started really in the 1860s with Thomas Hale Green and continued all the way through to the end of the 1940s with Hobson. And Hobson was a new liberal, but the two uh movements merge into one another. At the heart of what they were saying is uh to look for ways in which human beings can be respected as human beings, can be protected from poverty, can be protected from abuse of all different types, and to use ideas around the common good as a grounding that will build some sense of community. I think my research then, as growing up from the 1990s through to the present day, looking at various aspects of their positions. Um we'll come on and talk to those in a bit.

Andrew Copson 4:25

That leads us quite nicely on to well it

Neil Kinnock’s early years and introduction to politics

Andrew Copson 4:28

does, because Neil, you growing up also were shaped both by these intellectual values, but also your own personal experience. You grew up in the same mining town that was represented by Nye Bevin, the local MP. He was a hero to you. Can you tell us a little bit how about about how your roots um shaped your understanding of these ideas, but also any intellectual ideas that were floating around at the same time?

Neil Kinnock 4:49

Yeah, my father and his brothers, except one, and my mother's brothers, uh, my grandfather's both of them, and one of my great-grandfathers were all coal miners. And uh Tudiga was a very industrialized town, uh, with basically uh main employment in several coal mines, and some in the steelworks until it shut down in the 20s and then reopened in anticipation of the war in Ebbale, and some engineering mainly existing in order to feed those two in industries. And um my father had industrial dermatitis, he had to leave the pit, which broke his heart, he was uh a face captain, he loved being a coal miner, uh, but he then had to become a blasphemy in Evale. My mother was a district nurse. So, because of that family and the way in which they discussed, bantered, would be the modern word for it actually, because he was quite often very light-hearted about their past, about the condition of the world, about the condition of society, uh, about what they wanted for me. I was for a long time the only grandchild, and I was an only child of my parents, and I was treated not as a fully blown adult, but as someone they could talk to, and they would also always answer my questions. And um consequently, growing up in those circumstances, uh they imparted values, and the values they imparted were a little bit Christian ethic, and I am my brother's keeper, and no question about that. Uh, even though only my grandmother was a fastidious chapel glower, she was go, she was a happy clapper, and the only songs she knew were hymns. I mean, it was quite extraordinary, but the rest of the family didn't engage with religion at all, but they were socialists, and they were socialists not because of intellectual conviction, though that was part of their mentality, uh, but because of their life circumstances and uh the sense of community, of interdependence, of the obligation of people who were stronger, who were in work, for instance, and had some kind of security towards the other members of their family, people in the street, people in the community, uh, was just manifest. It was straightforward, it was every day it was breathing oxygen. So I it wasn't difficult for me to embrace the idea that I would be believing, accepting, applying exactly their standards.

Andrew Copson 7:52

And in addition to these family values which came out of just the circumstances of life, were there when you grew up maybe more, were there other intellectual sources that uh not really intellectual sources, no.

Neil Kinnock 8:02

I mean, I discovered that there were very smart people saying pretty much what I was thinking from the age of about 12, really. Uh, and the person who said most what I was thinking, which always comes as a miracle miraculous revelation to a 12-year-old kid, was Nye Bevan. He was our member of parliament, and I heard him from the age of 10. He used to a couple of times a year do big public meetings on issues of crucial importance nationally or sometimes locally, in the workman's hall in Tudiga. My father would take me uh on a Sunday night, uh, everybody dressed in their best clothes, and there would be a Tanoi outside, so there'd be 1,800 people, mainly men, but not solely men, in the workman's hall, and another thousand outside listening to what Nai was saying. And um, sitting there as a kid, the fact that I could understand and relate to what he was saying was was remarkable. By at the age of 12, I guess, I I don't know, but what occurred to me was all the good things in our community were collectively provided and by uh universal subscription and action. And that applied to the swimming pool, the tennis courts, the park, the workmen's hall itself, the library, the snooker room, the dance hall. And what I realized was, I guess, certainly before I was 14, was that if we were going to make things better, and like most kids, I wanted things to be better, even though for the first time in history, the working class in Todiga and everywhere else were enjoying full employment and all of the strength and confidence that goes with that. If we wanted things to be better, we were gonna have to work together to do it. And then by the time I was 14, I knew that you had to organize in order to achieve that. So I joined the Labour Party when I was 14.

Madeleine Goodall 10:15

It's

T.H. Green and the British idealists

Madeleine Goodall 10:16

quite interesting, I think, and I'll come back to you because so there's that very practical, like lived everything that that we're seeing that is good is coming from, you know, this sense of collective responsibility, working together, you know, subscriptions, all of that kind of thing. And then you've got in quite a different set of circumstances, people like those idealist philosophers, people like T. H. Green, and you know, obviously coming before we're talking about here, coming at it from I mean, is it an altogether different perspective? How are they how are what are their ideas and what how how do they kind of feed into this, I suppose?

Colin Tyler 10:53

No, I I it's not coming from a from that different perspective. Somebody like Green, for example, grew up in a Hamlet in Yorkshire, Birkin, and he was the vicar's son. Sorry. Um These things happen. Yes, but but we'll come on, there's a better part of that story. And he was the vicar's son. So he grew up, and he this the the he was always renowned at Oxford for taking care to be polite to people that he was working, you know, that were working with him, the people who were working in the college who weren't academics, you know. So, and he dedicated himself to that sort of activity throughout his life. He became a local councillor, got elected rather than appointed, which was uh unusual for an Oxford academic at that point because they could just be appointed by the university. He stood for election twice and got uh when he died, 2,000 people came out to say to see him and line the streets of Oxford. And these were ordinary working people who got to know him through his council work. So he's the founding figure, but then this is characteristic of the school where you find a whole series of other people who are like this. And this is why he thinks they appeal to so many, or they have appealed to so many people on the left. I mean, in terms of Labour politicians, you get them cited by Roy Attersley, John Crutus, Tony Blair, Tony Wright, but then also around the party, you get people like Matt Carter, Jonathan Rutherford, Raymond Plant, and particularly Frank Field and now Will Hutton. You know, so there's a there's a tradition there which is trying to revitalize that. At the core of what they're saying is that, first of all, human life is valuable to the extent that you can realize your capacities. And it's the obligation of the state and the community to do what it can to help people to have the conditions under which they can develop their personalities. And that means then that they are going to have to invest time and effort and money in providing those sorts of that sort of support. It's rooted in a form of Christianity and a form of non-conformism, but it rapidly loses much contact with God, to be honest. God becomes there, there's a there's a lovely story. One of the um the Welsh idealists, uh Sir Henry Jones, was called for an interview at one point in his his local town, and they said, Um, I'm not gonna try and do the voice because Neil will kill me. Um they said, Mr. Jones, I understand that uh you deny the divinity of Christ. And he said, Oh no, no, I don't deny the divinity of any man. Um and I and that says a lot because that's what happens with this tradition, you know, as they get older, as you go through the generations, they become still committed to ideas, you know, that some values are sacred in the sense that they shouldn't be violated. They are the things that make a human life worth living. But they lose the sense that this is in some way validated by a transcendent God. It's always an imminent God in that.

Madeleine Goodall 13:56

I can't

The ethical societies and Humanists UK

Madeleine Goodall 13:57

avoid saying, because of obviously this being the humanist heritage podcast and all, that T. H. Green also and the other, you know, idealist thinkers and and reformers, like you say, they did directly influence the founders of the ethical societies in in the UK that became humanist UK as it is today. So people like Bernard Bosenke and J. H. Muirhead, like they were the founders directly influenced by T. H. Green of the first ethical society in the UK in 1886. And although they were also drawing on the ethical culture tradition that had been founded by Adler in the US.

Neil Kinnock 14:34

My parents would have called the ethical society high and bloody matey.

Madeleine Goodall 14:38

Well, and and this is the this is the thing I'm always very aware of. And also the thing that strikes me thinking about it in these these terms is that some of them definitely were Secondary Bishops.

Neil Kinnock 14:50

Absolutely.

Madeleine Goodall 14:51

Yeah. And it was kind of like little philosophical talking shops, really, to some extent. They wanted to put their philosophy into practice, sometimes you know, with the best intentions. They were essentially, you know, often trained philosophers, people like me ahead and you know, that kind of thing. But then you also had, and again, linked very close links to the Labour movement, somewhere like I'm thinking of the Belfast Ethical Society, founded in 1896, almost forming the the function of the independent Labour Party in Belfast, very rooted in politics, very rooted in the kind of secularist traditions as well. Active incorporation and you know, all of these things.

Neil Kinnock 15:26

So it does strike me there's a really interesting kind of don't us forget though, the part played in all this by the dissolute John Maynard Keynes, who was anybody's it was nobody's idea of holy. Um and what he did was he was liberal, obviously, uh with a capital L, but he made the translation of the ideals of equity and justice and fair shares and so on practical by providing theories that were drawn from reality. So I mean I think it's crucial that and the energy comes from idealism. That's the usefulness of idealism, and idealism is very, very practical, of course. Couldn't we couldn't live without it. But you then got to have a tool that transcribes the decent, productive thoughts, equitable thoughts, into action that means something to people.

Colin Tyler 16:35

But and this is what they insisted upon. Rather than saying that they're they're naive, but in terms

Toynbee Hall and the settlement movement

Colin Tyler 16:45

of what they actually set out to do, I mean, one example to pick up on some of the things that we've just said about Maddie, the founding of the Toynbee Hall and all of that settlement. Arnold Toynbee was probably Toynbee's uh great-great uncle. Now, he was a pupil of Green's, he studied at Bailey or set at Oxford, and one of the key he died young, and they set up the Toynbee Hall and part of that whole and from that the settlement system in honour of him and in memory of him, because of course what the settlement, what Toynby Hall was supposed to do was to bring people from Oxford to live in the East End to see what poverty was really like on the ground, and it had a huge impact. So Asquith was another pupil of Green's and and Edward Cad. Beveridge similarly went to study at um was the pupil of Edward Cad and went to went to work at Toynbee Hall as well.

Neil Kinnock 17:45

And Clem Atley, wasn't he?

Colin Tyler 17:46

Clem Atley as well. So there's a there's that whole training ground.

Andrew Copson 17:49

And Clem Bern is interesting interesting because he was one of those who slightly objects as well to the high and mighty ethical elements and said it was better when the secular work of playing football with the boys was much more effective than the Can I read in it?

Neil Kinnock 18:01

He wrote a letter to his brother, who was very religious in the 30s, Clem. And his brother, in his repeated and frequent letters, uh was always praising God and Happy Clapp and all the rest of it. And uh eventually Clem got a bit irritated and he he put a P. S in a letter. P. S. As to religion, I try my best to embrace the uh social ethics of Christianity, but I can't stand the mumbo jumbo. And it it is a great definition of where I and I guess most democratic socialists stand. There's some lovely exceptions of people who are totally committed to God and all the rest of it, but Clem speaks for us, there's no doubt about that.

Colin Tyler 18:51

Yeah, and obviously, yeah, there is that, there is that sort of non non-religious side to it as well, as you say, it goes back to non-conformity.

Trade unions vs. the State

Colin Tyler 18:58

Throughout all of this, you know, I I want to sort of nail this idea that it's uh otherworldly. Because one of the things that they got involved with is trade union agitation, for example. They spoke to trade unions, and this was one of the problems, I think, when we move on to talk about the welfare state. This is going to be one of the issues, is about to what extent the welfare state was like the poor laws, was keeping people the extent to which the welfare state took the place of trade union activity and trade union assertion. And that's the difficult part in all of this because Green thought, you know, the poor laws are a necessary evil. And so, you know, and this is traditional, this is of the of the school, because what they actually wanted to do was people, men and women, to come together and to assert their own rights against those in power and to use that as a way and not to rely on some third party with the state. This changes when you move into the 20s and 30s, when you get people like particularly Hobson, where they have a critique of trade unionism, that it's a close essentially that it's a closed shop that will protect the people who are part of it but won't let people in afterwards. And I I wonder if that's a an experience of what comes after the First World War with returning soldiers who are excluded in some ways from returning to their jobs. Um and women. Yeah. And that's where they turn to the state, and that's where they think the state should step in to set these so to um allow a protection to be given to people that doesn't require them to already be in work, to be in a union, and that sort of thing.

Neil Kinnock 20:40

There's all kinds of echoes, you know, right through into relatively recent times. Jack Jones, for instance, my great comrade and a wonderful trade unionist, none better, was always against the minimum wage. And the reason he was against the minimum wage was a, as he used to say, I don't want the government doing the job we've got to be doing as trade unionists. And it was uh it took years to get and into his retirement to get Jack to turn around on that. And um uh it is is quite extraordinary. This idea of um the obligation of organized labor uh to be um unwilling to accept anything outside what could be achieved by collective bargaining was extraordinary. And uh it took decades to wear it down so that basic standards were established beyond which improvements could be secured by negotiation. And the strange thing is, and I used to challenge Jack with this, but even against the wages councils, he said it's the only hope that agricultural workers have got because of the nature of the industry. So uh even that rejection of state established basic standards. uh was he was prepared to make exceptions pragmatically to that. Um but i it didn't serve the cause of labor or of uh justice in general that there were all these confusions uh between what we're really after, which is a good, secure quality of living and the confidence that comes with it, and we have to do it our way.

Why the post-war moment made change possible

Andrew Copson 22:28

Let's talk a little bit about the the the post-war moment because so far what were the stories so far that we've got is we've got these idealist thinkers who are thinking in a new way about what what can be done. We've got just the experience of people's home and family and village and workplace culture that's bringing that tradition into things. But then there's something different isn't there about the post-war moment that suddenly means that actually we're ready to build these things and do these things. What do you think, Neil, it was that what what's important about that moment, Neil and then Colin, that makes that actually a welfare state possible?

Neil Kinnock 22:57

Uh that first of all this was the second world war and people are absolutely determined not just in the new Labour government but much more widely that they weren't going to repeat the cruel stupidities of the years after the First World War and the ensuing depressions of the 1920s and the catastrophes of the 1930s both economic primarily but also political that produced a readiness and I don't think I'm exaggerating across society for big change uh which was understood by Apli and Bevin and Bevan and Cripps and Morrison and the rest of them and they had the audacity to get on with it. The second thing is that the experience before the Second World War between the two wars and indeed before the First World War of course was so horrific and fantastically wasteful that it produced um a readiness in the public mentality very generally I mean only really subservient communities and um rock hard users of privilege really rejected the idea of universality of everybody who is a citizen having a right to access particularly if they exercise the responsibility of contribution. And that I mean I think for the most of the time since the 1950s progressives and use the general term have been trying to replicate that in the absence of war is damn difficult.

Colin Tyler 24:48

In the presence of just sheer common sense it should be easy I don't think we should underestimate though what did come before in that system as as you say near was very imperfect. But what Lloyd George and Churchill were trying to put in after the well just before the First World War you know that those new liberal governments from 1906 particularly through to about 1916 you know there they are trying to at least bring together and systematize some sort of provision in a way and to ensure that there is a more consistent provision of welfare across they they fail but sure but I mean they give it a good try. They do but don't forget what Lloyd George and Churchill the Churchill of those days had in common was a commitment the mitigation as a way of forestalling revolution I mean there's certainly in Churchill's case not so much Lloyd George's case who uh showed immense courage and determination no doubt about it but certainly as far as the Churchill part of that doo is concerned he was doing a Bismarck and explicitly I think doing a Bismarck yeah he would he would cite Bismarck as you know and the Bismarck reforms as being the basis of this and I think I think it's worth bearing in mind though that when you look at Lloyd George and the insurance the National Insurance Act that comes in in 1911 as the two parts the first part is about health second part is about unemployment it's based on a contributory principle you know so you have to pay in it's generally paid out to the worker in the family the male worker in the family you know so there's there's a whole series of problems and it gets implemented in various inconsistent ways even at that point but he is explicit that this is the first step and when you get to when Beveridge starts speaking starts talking doing his broadcasts in in 1942 he explicitly says this is the continuation of those acts that Lloyd George the great war leader from the first world war and Churchill the great war leader from the second world war they wanted to bring in he said this is the completion of their act of of their actions and I think that's where somebody like I mean we'll probably we will come on to obviously talk to uh to talk about Night Bevan but you know this is where he is of a vital figure in the well let's

Nye Bevan – a poet and a plumber of politics

Colin Tyler 27:17

do that now because we you you've taken us back to not just before the second world but before the first world but we want to come back now to the back to the mid-20th century um and this post-war moment because I want to hear a little bit more about the different like what the base of the welfare state was you know I remember Nye Bevan about the NHS was famous for saying for defending on all sorts of grounds he would speak to a group of churchmen and say it's a very Christian idea the NHS he would speak to a group of more secular inclined fabian people who go it's real progressive socialism.

Andrew Copson 27:46

There's these aspects to it. But in in in reality not just in terms of trying to sell the product but in the origin of these ideas where did the religious and secular traditions here diverge? I mean is it just a coincidence that someone like Night Beveron and Clement Attlee who we've heard about were this worldly sort of men. They weren't distracted by religion they had they thought about this life and this world or is it a great overlapping contribution of religious and secular people? Who wants to go first on this question?

Neil Kinnock 28:12

Well I mean the accusation against Nye very often was even though he was a very fundamentally practical person, I mean I've the phrase I've used about him was yes he was a poet of politics and there's no doubt about that with his masterful oratory I mean it's quite extraordinary but he was also a plumber who got things done and uh and he'd never said oh I've got to go back to the works in order to get this pipe he did it there and then and as you say he was prepared to use political skills with different audiences eventually to the point where he managed to get the uh the doctors all engaged in the National Health Service as contracted persons not as civil servants uh by as he put it stuffing their mouths with gold and uh he got up on a platform and said that can you imagine that happening now anyway but so he was he was immensely practical but he was very frequently accused of course of being otherworldly not least by his comrades and that was because he was even in his own lifetime unconsciously but he was he was straight off the Sermon on the Mount and um he sounded like it he spoke like it though he he didn't have an impressive voice and he could mem mesmerize audiences not in the way that Hitler did but by attracting them to the force of the argument and he always picked against any opponent he always picked on their strongest points in order to try and destroy them and I mean so he's quite extraordinary but what he had going for him as he acknowledged himself was this driving force of expectation I mean I tell what a story very quick story that sums it up amongst working class people in the turn of the century when the educational reforms were being introduced that provided elementary education and then in some places secondary education in Tonopandy in the Ronda Valley in South Wales they decided to establish a grammar school and the grammar school was a wonderful idea and when they produced the curriculum it had woodworking and mathematics and physics and it was all great and there was a mass meeting objecting where's the Latin and uh the governor said well you know this is the Ronda Valley what do we want Latin for? If it's good enough for them it's bloody well good enough for us and that idea that we were there to provide not just the supply in quantity but quality and that too there was no second best as far as Bevan was concerned it had to be the best which entails its own challenges but also its own inspiration.

Colin Tyler 31:10

Yeah but I this goes back it's a part of a longer of that longer tradition isn't it there you know there's a there's a I quote again from Green but he says that the idea of the education of the gentleman should lose its meaning because it should be an education which is available to everyone and you know that so they were very heavily involved education becomes a a running theme for all of a lot of these people as well and that is what drags people from Henry Jones ends up Sir Henry Jones. He started out as the son of a shoemaker yeah he was an apprentice and then he gets to go to university and gradually he becomes he's traveling the world preaching the the gospel of idealism very much in those terms. But that's the tradition that that it strikes me that Bevan is is building on that it's it it has to be about the importance of decreasing class as a determinant of somebody's life and success providing some sort of an a an enriching background for them but allowing them the freedom to make what they will of it and that is clearly what makes the the welfare state such a wonderful thing when it works is that it is able to

The basis of the universalist idea

Colin Tyler 32:20

do that.

Andrew Copson 32:20

Aaron Ross Powell And if you had to summarize where you think you know just in terms of intellectually the what the basis of that universalist idea is in the late 19th and early 20th century. You're not gonna like that I mean you're gonna say I think it's interesting because I think you're gonna say in part it's Christianity. And of course I'm always interested by that because it's you know Christianity was around for many many centuries before it apparently seemed to produce some universalist public services. And I'm very skeptical about this idea that it's underpinned by Christianity.

Neil Kinnock 32:46

If you look at any part of the history the universality was at its best quality limited to relatively few.

Colin Tyler 32:55

Because uh the whole idea of a church and there's some nonconformist deliberate exceptions to this of course is hierarchy and the moment that you've got a system an organization an institution that not is not just dependent on but celebrating hierarchy then the idea of the universality of equitable treatment and fair shares that gets it's out the windows for squeezed diminished yeah exactly but the but that's where the type of Christianity matters isn't it you know if you if you got the that's where nonconformity becomes so important and unitarianism which is where a lot of these people are are very close to but if it is going to be a very hierarchical form of worship then yes that is difficult. The other part of it is of course that you end up having to worship a being other than the worship a being and I think that is in itself is a problem worshiping anybody is a is a problem for this whole ethic.

Neil Kinnock 33:55

Yeah you should always try and you know face the world as a responsible but it's the thing is the being and the uh the uh contributions claimed for the being didn't match up with real life I mean that's Christianity has diminished partly through laziness fine but mainly because people can't see the connection between miraculous faith and normal life.

Andrew Copson 34:24

So there's a lot of reason in in in men of people like Clement Atli or uh Bevan's generation and and kidney isn't there there's a lot of sort of rationalism there actually you think of the uh the Fabins the founders of the Fabins as well half of them at least were members of the Rationalist Association and went on to be good humanists you know there is a lot of that sort of thinking too which pushes religion out but I feel also that you're you're saying that maybe there was Christian motivation for these thinkers but it seems to me like they're it's not humanity is more important to them than God is that objective for the worship really Yeah and that and that's where it all moves eventually.

Colin Tyler 34:56

And I think that has to be that has to be you know as a humanist myself you know I think you have to have faith in in what's uh around you and the the people around you many of them let you down and a lot of a lot of them are appalling but if there there has to be some way to try and save a little bit of that spark of decency. And that is you know the thing that destroys it of course is poverty and fear and that's why the welfare state is such a vital institution because it does pick up on those things that stop us being decent to each other.

Neil Kinnock 35:30

Don't forget part of the reaction especially in the Labour and trade union movement but more widely derived in this country but particularly in several other countries from the fact that religion, organized religion was an agency of oppression. I mean if you uh you talk to a Spanish socialist and some Italian socialists in this generation of course it doesn't arise but in previous generations and of course it resulted in terrible atrocities in the killing of priests and nuns and God knows what dreadful things. But nevertheless part of the motivation of installing a system based on humane values and provision came out of a really militant rejection of the pretense of the their churches to be the provider of well-being and welfare where they with marvelous exceptions saintly exceptions failed.

Andrew Copson 36:35

When we were talking once about this and I asked you about what you thought of Howard Wilson's famous maxim of the Labour Party owing more to Methodism than Marxism and it annoyed you actually well and is it it's a nice tricky phrase.

Neil Kinnock 36:48

I mean it's and I I don't think that Harold ever darkened the door of a church except for funerals and weddings. So uh but it's a nice little tricky little phrase I thought it actually thinking about it I thought it started with the webs who were m even more inventive than Harold and a lot less fun.

Andrew Copson 37:10

That might be trashy but but one one of the webs was a Christian one of the webs was a humanist right there was a and and they or maybe they switched through their lives from one to the other I'm not sure but there was a lot of switching about in those days. In those circles. Yes but it but this is the point isn't it that you know that there is always even someone like Beveridge who's not a Christian in any way he's always sort of thinking about Christian thinking that went before him and so on and and and sort of translating that. Well he was influenced by positivism.

Colin Tyler 37:40

His father was a humanist of course already right but there's always that issue about how you you use references to religion are they sincere or are they trying to get your message across to your audience?

Neil Kinnock 37:49

Anybody who's ever stood on the public platform and without any reservation and no blushing used phrases from the Bible I'm guilty of that because it said what I wanted to say better than I could say it. So I'm I mean when you get a big thick book like that in any case which which includes phrases that are absolutely to the contrary of any form of decency but as there's a lot of great poetry and um that's always useful because it says much more quickly than prose.

Madeleine Goodall 38:23

I think as well I think Colin you were talking about earlier this idea of the kind of religious spirit not actually necessarily referring to like a theological spirit but referring to a kind of devotion to a cause or an idea.

Neil Kinnock 38:38

Yeah you're doing good and that's what it's supposed to be about is about quite often.

Colin Tyler 38:44

And there are supposed to be some values that are more important than individuals. You know whether you're a humanist or not that's why people volunteer to go to war to war. You know they're willing to put their life on the line for these sorts of things and they they do it for their families and their friends but they also do it for freedom and they do it for justice and equality.

Andrew Copson 39:04

You know people will die for these things they also do the same for oppression and they do violence and governors won't you but of course they'll understand those sorts of things in a positive way so they still feel they're contributing to something they believe in even though they're wrong you know it's not a good it's not a good thing.

Colin Tyler 39:20

Aristotle good pagan he wasn't on our screen no he's not he's not he's always Aristotle's always there in the background I did this course on um history for many years on history of political thought and I'd always say to my students if at any point in the next 10 weeks I ask you a question who said this then the answer's always going to be Aristotle I wish you'd been a lecturer of mine by God. But Aristotle does say you know we always act for some good you know everybody you know the fascists act for some good the socialists do and but the problem is how do you assess which are the right goods?

Neil Kinnock 39:59

And he didn't met Trump. Oh no he had admit Trump.

Madeleine Goodall 40:03

Yes true is this a good time to get onto the uh the legacy of these ideas or at least what we could uh what we might to avoid having to talk about Trump absolutely let's move straight to the straight to the next section.

What the founding of the welfare state can teach us now

Madeleine Goodall 40:16

You know I I guess it's it's it is what does what do these traditions what does this history offer to to us now or to what what can it say to contemporary challenges that we might be experiencing at the moment?

Neil Kinnock 40:31

That uh I mean there's a word bandied about so much accountability. And if we can reassert, we don't have to re-establish it, we reassert the idea that society should be run and the major economic decisions and political decisions made in accordance with social well being or the well being of human society and that those who make the decisions should be accountable at society is pretty simple basic. It's yeah of course it's driven by a kind of belief in your fellow men and women it's so it's to that extent idealistic but it's so practical. And it does mean you dismantle shibbolets of and ziggurats of prejudice and and exploitation and God knows what simply because the people taking the decisions know they're going to be held to account. Now we're supposed to have a development democracy days on which weeks, months years in which I have a bit of doubt about that but nevertheless at least about the adjectives but the thing is we've got freedom and the great privilege of freedom is the ability to add to it and consequently if we were able to win that argument in application not in not in the abstract in application I think everything would be much better. Much better.

Andrew Copson 42:11

In terms of replace finding something to replace for our generation or future generations the role of the war the experience of the second world war in that moment because you said I think this is absolutely right you know that progressives have been looking for 70 years for something to do that same job and humanists among them. Is there anything there? I mean this is the base of so you know the common story for everything like democracy, welfare state, human rights, international human rights the basis for so much of that is we never want the Second World War to happen again. We've all been through it. What can replace that now?

Neil Kinnock 42:39

Uh two things and they're identified already in fact they've got a massive institutional presence the UN's climate goals and the UN's development goals. I can bring us together oh sure but it's not only because we'd like to do things to save the planet or to stop people being hungry and going to war and being driven into migration and all the huge discomfort and upheaval and death that comes with that it's practical. It's a great deal more practical to undertake activities very deliberately and comprehensively to reduce the amount of carbon in the atmosphere by the variety of very very productive high employment high wage activities than it is to let the bloody thing go to rot and inflict disasters on our grandchildren. And secondly it just makes more sense productively to ensure that we conquer poverty. So it's difficult to make those either of those as personal or as threatening or as urgent as being in a war. But they are of of the scale And of the proximity that just makes sense for us to try and get people to understand that the future and a much, much better, cleaner, more sustainable, secure, prosperous future is actually in their own hands. And they did understand that in 1945.

Madeleine Goodall 44:19

What do you think, Colin? Common good.

Colin Tyler 44:22

Yeah, no, there was a good few years ago now. I went to Zambia with my wife. My wife is interested in migration and the ways in which people can integrate migrant communities. And we went out to the out the border between Zambia and Angola, and they had an empty refugee camp. And it was the most hopeful symbol that you could have. She was on a Winston Churchill fellowship to do a report, and that was the final picture was the empty refugee camp. Because they had gone to back to Angola, the war had stopped. When we were there, they had a clinic, and the clinic had a number of buildings, four or five buildings. And one of the buildings was for TB treatment, and the other was for AIDS treatment. And they got the money from the UN. And they got the money for the UN, and the UN said, right, you can have the TB clinic if you also have the AIDS clinic. Because and people were very, they didn't want to be seen going to the AIDS clinic, but they put it in such a way that you could get there and no one would see. Anyway, the crucial point here is that they found something that both the host community wanted, the TB Clinic, and also was needed for the other groups which were around AIDS. And that I think is trying to find some way in which the benefits for a host community can also be a benefit for the community you're trying to integrate. And I think that is one of the crucial things is to try and build dialogues and address the counter-narratives that are being told by people like Farage and where they try and pick out what's different and invent differences. And I think returning some sort of a sense of human contact, that to me is the most important thing. Because it always strikes me when you see the the support for far right groups is generally in areas where there aren't many migrants.

Neil Kinnock 46:14

Yes. And always more.

Colin Tyler 46:16

Yeah. And it's because they don't actually rub shoulders with these other human beings. It's the unknown. Yeah.

Neil Kinnock 46:22

It's the others, which of course the far right always requires in a case, in order to mobilize, they must find a source of grievance, real or imagined, and then find others to blame. And that's what's going on now, not just in this country, but other places too. Colin, you're so right because if you can demonstrate benefit to the receiving community, then you've reduced the problem of others and any idea of threat very significantly. And here we are in well, I don't know, the 70th year of significant immigration to the United Kingdom. We're now in 2026. We cannot afford not to have the influx of young people who will work hard and build their lives because we're an aging society. Even if we want to look after ourselves, I mean, I'll be gone, but you know, I'm not talking about 84-year-olds, but 50 and 60-year-olds, if they want to live a contented life in 20 years' time, there will be no British people to give them the revenues or the physical and mental support unless we've rejuvenated our society. It's not gonna happen by birth. I mean, I encourage people to have kids. I think it's a great idea for those who can manage it and afford it. Terrific. But that we're never going to get enough of uh production of a new generation of British-born people in time. And so here's the benefit, not just in the additional revenues that are generated and the fact that young, incoming, ambitious working people always generate more for the treasury than they take out of the welfare or education or any other services. Um if we could just get that reality, and it did the thing, the force that it has is of realism. If we could get that implanted much more generally, a lot of people understand it, of course, but not enough people understand it. I mean, we they could then treat Farage and his people as another bunch of bloody politicians, can't believe a word they say, which would be very healthy.

Colin Tyler 48:49

Yeah, I think, but I think also just look around at the community, the cultures that we have now. The different, you know, I know it's easy to pick on food, but food is one art, and the whole of our public space is just enriched by the so many having these different cultures mixing here. And that's that's the most important thing is for people actually to meet. And in Hull at the end, well, I think about 2007, there was major flooding, for example. It went all through the center of Hull, it took out the railway. The people who went out on boats, there were some uh the local council sent people out, but it was Muslim groups out on boats, yeah, yeah, yeah. Going around council estates, getting people out. You know, it's that sort of but that's the sort of story, that's the sort of reality that needs to be picked up on and spread. And I think that unless we get that, then we're never going to we'll all be always be praised of this negative old salesman.

Andrew Copson 49:47

Well, I think it's clear that this humane ethical tradition of common good and everything else has still has a lot to offer to our society and a lot of underpinnings for our politics. So thank you for both joining us today. We've

Favourite Humanists And Final Links

Andrew Copson 49:57

got a last question that we've been asking on this podcast of every guest that we've had about their favourite humanist, either in this space of the topic that we've been talking about today or beyond from history. I think you were going to say Nye Bevan, but if you're not, then no, you're not. Michael Foote. Oh, Michael, yes. Okay, that's wonderful. That's one now. The great thing about Michael Foote, of course, is that he wasn't just uh a humanist, he was a a very engaged humanist UK member who always sent his apologies to the AJM when he couldn't, you know, we'd always get a nice letter from Michael.

Neil Kinnock 50:28

The politest man in the kingdom, even under pressure.

Andrew Copson 50:32

But what inspired you about him then? I mean, why would you choose to be able to do that?

Neil Kinnock 50:35

Oh, because um I first of all his beliefs in conduct and the way he was also my dearest comrade. So I'm I'm biased. But um no, because he could articulate it so brilliantly, and without patronizing anybody, without condescending, with uh full understanding of the other side of the argument, um, which is why he numbered amongst his best mates, fully paid up preachers and bishops and all kinds of people wearing robes and dog collars, because they thought he was great, and they actually thought that um his uh humanism, although they would have thought of it as uh extreme, was actually Christian. I mean, he was he was pretty good at persuading people. No, I mean he had the full kit, Michael. Yeah, brilliant.

Colin Tyler 51:29

Just to pick up on the uh Michael Foote thing, I only never met him once. It was a political studies association conference. He gave the after dinner speech, and it were he went through a poem by Swift, you know, one of his great heroes, and he would read some lines and then extemporise on these, but all the way through he was completely outstaged by his dog, Dizzy, who was walking around. Um, and he would always stop and he'd go, Where's Dizzy now? And some a table over there would put their hand up.

Neil Kinnock 51:57

Another reason to love him after this really by Jill his wife. I could never find out why.

Colin Tyler 52:04

No, I mean for me it would be I was thinking about this, and I think Bentham. Oh, bet you're good, yeah. Yeah, Bentham was the I mean, anyone who can write something called the further uses of the dead to the living is you know, he's got oh, he's got my vote. But I think he's literally an iconoclast, you know. He set up an icon, you know, the auto icon, his model of himself, you know, or his skeleton in his clothes and so on, with a f with his wax effigy head, and when it started to when the real one started to go green as well as orange, because he wanted to break down prejudice. And he did it for a very practical reason. He did it first of all because he thought people should be rational and they should think through what their beliefs are. But also he did it so that people would donate their mud their bodies for medical research, you know. So it's it's from the very grand to the very, very practical.

Madeleine Goodall 52:52

Oh God, I wasn't.

Andrew Copson 52:54

Were you prepared? No. Jenny Lee, I thought you were gonna say. I I spent all day thinking who's Maddie gonna choose. I bet it's Jenny Lee.

Madeleine Goodall 53:00

Oh, that's interesting. Um I've got you're wrong there. Well, I d I I do like Jenny Lee. I mean, she fits with the uh the long discussion of Night Bourbon 2, doesn't she? I mean, I do think, especially talking about people who've spearheaded again very practical organisations or initiatives, so for Jenny Lee best associated with the open university. And again, that was very much, it was it was supposed to be an opportunity for people who had not had access for whatever reason, whether it was because they were coming later in life or because they, you know, because of their background to that education could do it and could do it in a way that was practical for them, a university of the air, all of that kind of thing. Um, and I think that is quite remarkable. And again, in the way that that was expressed as a concept and as a practical offering opportunity, I do think I do feel inspired by that. So yeah, all right, I'll take Jimmy. I thought we're gonna take Jenny.

Andrew Copson 53:57

Yeah. Very good.

Madeleine Goodall 53:58

What about you?

Andrew Copson 53:59

John Stripmill for me. Yeah, John Stripmill. I think so. Because he's he's a bit funnier than Bentham.

Colin Tyler 54:05

I would say that Bentham was much funnier than funnier than you think.

Andrew Copson 54:08

Oh, okay, okay. All right. Um, well, you know, John Stripmill I think was good, and you know, there's a lot of uh interesting work to be done, I think, on how the extent to which John Stripmill was more influential than you think on socialism and socialist ideas. Read a really interesting book recently by Helen McCabe, um yeah, who what was it called? John Strip Mill Socialist, I think it was called, and I was very convinced by it. It was a very interesting work.

Neil Kinnock 54:31

The thing is that of course there are a lot of people, and J.S. Mills was one of them, who didn't know they were socialists because um partly because of the shadow cast by Marx and Marxism. And uh, you know, until the French came along and started talking about the obligations of uh societe, um they didn't have a word for it. And it meant that quite a lot of people with the absolutely strong commitment to all the values of justice, humanity, of uh universality, of collectivism for indiv for the purpose of individual liberty, which is what drives us as democratic socialists, they they didn't have a they didn't have a a label. And so they they developed the word socialism. Then it was then used usurped by Marx and this scientific socialism stuff. God knows. And but it became a religion. And uh it it killed certainly as many other pe uh many people as as most religions. Yeah. And was perverted beyond all description.

Andrew Copson 55:49

Thank you very much for joining us for this episode of Unholy Histories. Where can listeners find out more about your work as our final question?

Colin Tyler 55:57

Oh, my university homepage, just Colin Tyler Hull University, you'll find it all listed there.

Andrew Copson 56:03

We had looked before we came on, it's a great photo of you too. Very nice page. And Neil, have you got a book recently? Anything you want to point out?

Neil Kinnock 56:10

I've got no book. Well, um my last I've only uh produced two books. It was one in 1992, with which is my conference speeches. It's a bit narcissistic, but it you know it is worth looking at it. As six formers doing politics at A level do with a religious intensity is quite extraordinary. God help them.

Andrew Copson 56:31

Well, there we are. Colin on your academic website and Neil, whose life is his work. Thank you both for joining us. Oh my god. Thank you for listening to Unholy Histories, the Humanist Heritage Podcast, brought to you by Humanist UK. To join, support, or find out more about Humanist UK's campaigns and services, visit humanists.uk or you can follow us on social media at Humanists UK. This podcast was produced by Humanize Live. Find out more about creating content for compassionate communities at www.humanize.live.

Madeleine Goodall 57:05

You can find out more about the rich history and influence of humanism on the Humanist Heritage website at heritage.humanist.uk.